How can art help you build more self awareness?

Lisa and Lauren chat with current President of The American Art Therapy Association, Founder of Creative Studio, and Professor of Continuing Education at the Anáhuac University in Mexico City, Nadia F. Paredes (https://www.artfooddreamers.com/)  and the positive impact that can have on them, their community, and the world. They also talked about the challenge of when a creative person hits a wall, falls into a funk and that not making art is also part of the process of creating and making art. If your someone who has never considered themselves creative or if you are feeling a creative block, this podcast is for you. Check it out. Lauren mentions a past podcast episode, and you can listen to that conversation at https://artismoving.org/feed-your-creative-life/

Transcript

Lisa: 0:02

Okay. Welcome to Artist Moving. It's a new day, as we all said. We are so happy to have Nadia on our show today. This is Lisa Lauren . So Nadia, introduce yourself in a short way. <laugh>

Nadia: 0:15

<laugh> . Sure. Thank you both. Uh, so my name is Nadia Paredes. I am registered art therapist , uh, family and marital therapist as well. But , um, I, I think that the thing that I hold most valuable to right now is I am the current president of the American Art Therapy Association. Wow. So that's awesome.

Lauren: 0:36

That's a lot. That's a lot. That's awesome.

Nadia: 0:39

<laugh> . So that's me, in short,

Lauren: 0:41

That's a

Nadia: 0:42

Professional version of me. That's great . That's great. Yeah . I'm mom , I'm also wife . I'm most adult mom ,

Lauren: 0:48

<laugh> . Uh, well, thanks for taking the time to talk to us today. Uh, and we just want, we always like to start with just a question to jump off of, and then just wherever it goes, it goes , um, wherever . Yeah. Yeah. It's, it tends to go really well. Uh, so we just wanted to talk to you about , um, about how art can make someone more self-aware , um, because a lot of artists we've talked to in the past have spoken to this idea of like, without even realizing it, like art is kind of this tool where you get to know yourself a little bit better. So why don't you give us your interpretation of how art can help with self-awareness?

Nadia: 1:28

Of course. So , uh, I guess I would start with just saying, as an art therapist, I see that art is a mirror, right? What you create, kinda like the product that you create can definitely serve as a mirror of who you are. But for me, I mean, I'm a process-based art making , like art maker, so mm-hmm <affirmative> . I think the process is so revealing, right? When you're making art, you start to notice so many things about yourself that if you're just a little bit, just like self-aware, that you will start to realize like, huh, I'm noticing right now that I'm struggling with this, you know, stroke. That usually to me it's very easy, or, oh , I usually do these things and now it's kind like getting weird, or I'm getting too self aware or, you know, it's like I'm , or, or I kind of like, I'm getting a lot of like, you know, kind of like fearful of like, Ooh , what would other people think? I think that that's the moment where we can use that self-awareness of like, this is interesting to think like, how is this kind of like, appear in my everyday life? Like in my everyday life? Am I also struggling with, I'm very worried about what other people think about me? Or am I, you know, kinda like you can translate that art process of yours into like, huh, is this also mirroring my reality? Right? And who I am right now, do I have a creative block because I am like, where's this block coming from? Am I having some personal things happening that maybe are preventing me from, from getting into the creative or, you know, or maybe again, when you're creating, suddenly things get unblocked, <laugh>. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . 'cause the way art is, right? The cool thing about art, I mean, and , and this is art therapy science. Now I'm gonna go a little bit more into the science space of it. Um, it's like when we create art, there's a theory in art therapy called the expressive therapies continuum, right? And we say that creativity is kinda like created at a nervous system level in three levels, right? Body, emotions and mind, we can create from our body by sensory or by kinesthetic, right? Maybe the movement is what's getting like, oh, this is very nice. This is feeling good, soothing. I like this slow movement right now, you know, of me interacting with my art. Uh, or maybe it's more the sensory, right? Like, oh my God, the smell of the, you know, of, of the clay or the paint mm-hmm <affirmative> . Uh , or, or is it more like me sensing like, no , like, you know, finger painting, right? Like, just how is that feeling for me? Um, and how that helps me kinda like ground myself, right? Like, that is the way that creativity kind of like shows up physically. But then there's also the emotions, right? Sometimes we create something and the feelings get poured out of our system. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Sometimes by just ourselves just putting the emotion out there, it's just nice, right? When you're just like, ah , I'm feeling so angry, or I'm feeling so resentful because of historical things that are happening around me. Right? You paint and you create, and then that anger is out of you. Like suddenly you're like, okay, it's not , I'm no longer holding onto this inside me, it's out there. Right? Or there's also that other part of like, just creating, for example, repetitive patterns is soothing. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like if you're notice , like if you're a scribbler <laugh> , you're probably using art to self-regulate your emotions, right? If you're like, you know , eating and you're like painting away, or you're just kinda like creating something on the side and that helps you concentrate. That's you using art to self-regulate and be able to actually think. Right? So whenever mm-hmm <affirmative> . Teachers tell me like, don't get dis like, kids don't have to be distracted. I was like, on the contrary, they're actually focusing like they're actually being able to focus and listen to you. 'cause the emotions are being put on paper. Um, and then we have that, again, that third level, the mind. Um, and in that space, what we do is that, you know, we have ways to express ourselves that are symbolic, right? Like, like, for example, an emoji emojis are , are kinda like , we all know what they are. If I send you a sad phase , you will understand what I'm sharing. Mm , mm-hmm <affirmative> . Right? And then there's also that other aspect of creating symbols where you're like creating metaphors for yourself, right? I mean, we could see that in poetry. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Of like, I feel like the wind is lifting me from the ground. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Right? Like, I'm not telling , I'm , I'm telling you exactly how I feel, but not, you know, not really telling you how I feel. Right. Or not, kind of like very concretely. So because of all those things, art and creativity are a holistic way of connecting with yourself. 'cause again, you're engaging all of your body, all of your, so like , of your mind, your emotions, and that's why it's so important. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like, that's where it gets to a, oh, this is how I self explore because this is literally me being my whole self.

Lauren: 6:09

Mm . Mm-hmm <affirmative> .

Nadia: 6:11

With ,

Lauren: 6:11

So , right. So you're saying that the magic of art, one of the many magics of art is that it's engaging your mind, body, and emotions at the same moment.

Nadia: 6:25

Yeah. Oh, and I forgot to say also spiritual. I mean that, I guess like that depends on, you know, on , on what are your belief , like belief systems . Yeah . But definitely also spirit, right? Right . Like also your , whatever your conception is of soul, spiritualism, higher beings, all of that. Right? Like, I think that it's so present. Like, I, I was in China , um, I just returned Monday. Wow. And it's amazing to see the way they make art <laugh> because there was a lot of spirituality present in their creations. Like, I, I went to a concert and this musician , um, he explained to us that he's like, I put this instrument, the one which is a , a very ancient, like musical instrument in China. He's like, I put it in front of the Buddha and kind of like, just, you know, told him to guide me that I would put his word forward to everybody through my, through this instrument. And then he showed us, this is the instrument, right. That I, that I put in front of this statue. And honestly, like, he told us this after the concert ended, like he had like a q and a with a public. And honestly, I was amazed, like the entire concert, I was just fascinated that this music felt so out of earth <laugh> . Like, it was just so, so completely, I was in this space of relaxation that I hadn't experienced in years where I was like, so relaxed

Lauren: 7:42

<laugh> . Wow .

Nadia: 7:42

So not this moment. Like, it was just so, again, and when he explained that, I was like, absolutely. Like, this was a spiritual experience, right. That we were hearing prayers happening through, through song. Right. And , and it was just being very present in that moment. So I definitely feel like there's that component of, again, right? Like he's using his fingers to move, right? Like create this kinesthetic energy in combination with, you know, this , um, you know, this instrument. He also said that he attunes a lot with a public's , um, energy, kind of like, you know , how the <inaudible> the public feeling. So there's that emotional connection right. To the other, to yourself. And then there's him connecting to a higher source, you know, that he's like, I'm just gonna channel whatever the source wants to share with all of you. Right . And then we went into a cognitive space of like, him processing this for all of us. <laugh> Right . Happen to all of you. And we were all like, this is amazing <laugh> . This is, wow .

Lisa: 8:40

That's the power of art . That's amazing. I have a kind of a intervention about being self-aware. So after this historic tragic thing happened in my, in my paradigm , um, I, I said, I , I'm an artist. I'm an arts and healing artist , right? And that's my whole life. I didn't want anything to do with art. I'm like, I don't want anymore. So what do you do then? Because we're talking about the power of art. But at that moment in time, I was like, it. I'm sorry, I can't swear. But <laugh>, you know, what, how can , how, and you're Yes . Kind of getting me back to that space. But I think a lot of people might be feeling that, you know, like ,

Lauren: 9:15

Um , right. No, I'm, I'm actually on the same page as you , Lisa . Um , I'm like, it's, it's like ins inspiring me to think about what about what about someone who, like, how do you do it? You know what I mean? Like, and then, and it , it's because, you know, the three of us here have experienced what you just talked about, right? You've just experienced it for a hun a thousandth time in your life when you traveled. Right. And we, we know what art can do, but what, what if you're someone who's like , uh, no . How do we get people to <laugh>? How do we get people to, to give it a try? Because we know that the world would be a better place if everybody was using art as a way to get to know themselves better. Yeah.

Nadia: 10:09

<laugh> , what a

Lauren: 10:09

Challenge. Right?

Nadia: 10:11

What a challenge. I was like, it's a challenge that I actually, I enjoy a lot. I actually, the work that I do with like, communities, I enjoy working with people who tell me I'm not an artist. 'cause I'm like mm-hmm <affirmative> . Oh my God, come on , take us .

Lisa: 10:23

Yeah . Yeah .

Nadia: 10:24

Lemme show you the power of this thing that we do. Uh , but first I will address like, the first question, kind of like, you know, when you go into this funk of Yeah . I don't wanna create, like right now. Yeah . I think that collective feeling. 'cause I was absolutely with you <laugh> , like yesterday, I was like, I don't wanna create, like, screw that . I was like, I can't, but I will take us back to what I was saying at the beginning of, look at the process of creating, right? Like, let's look at that and being like, okay, I don't want to create, and why is that? Right? Like, how is creative process explaining my actual life process? And I would be , yesterday, a lot of the things that I reflected on for myself that I was also, I'm usually someone who's supper upbeat. I'm always like, Hey, we'll find a way out. Exactly . Like, I'm like, I'm very positive like that, where I'm like, I mean, I'm , I'm Mexican, so I also feel like I'm like, ah , we can take on any challenge. I'm like, we're creative . We make things happen. Like, you know, we have no resources and we still, we know make things happen. Right. Yesterday for I think the first time in a long time, I was like, Nope. Nope . Yeah , I can't , Nope . Right? But then I started to, you know, I started to go on social media, see what people were saying, and I loved one of like, the posts, many posts that I saw that one was like, about grief .

Lisa: 11:45

Yes . Mm-hmm

Nadia: 11:46

<affirmative> . And it was maybe right now we don't need to produce. Right. Part of the creative process is to create, to make something. Right. But it was like, if we jump into creating, we're missing the space of reflection. We're missing the space of not doing, which means Yeah . Sitting down with the hardship, with the feeling that we're tempted maybe to be like, I wanna get outta this. I wanna , you know, get my hands dirty and start working on something. But it was like, maybe it's not the time yet. Like, first let's take the time to rest. Yeah . To allow this feeling to be present, which is an uncomfortable feeling. <laugh> definitely not nice. Right . Because it might be a mix of a lot of uncomfortable feelings. Yeah . Right . Because I don't think they're bad feelings or negative feelings. I do wanna highlight as a , I guess a therapist. I'm like, Hey, they're just uncomfortable. Yeah.

Lauren: 12:38

Yeah.

Nadia: 12:39

They serve a purpose. Right. They have a purpose. Right. You know, the purpose of anger is for us to set boundaries. Right. For me, yesterday, my feeling was sadness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And sadness is a feeling that invites you to reflection, that invites you to slow down.

Lauren: 12:56

Yeah .

Nadia: 12:57

To think, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . To just think about like, okay, why, going back to that self-awareness, like what , why am I so sad? Where is this sadness stemming from? What is this sadness trying to tell me? Right. Yeah . About myself first. Right. Before I have to figure it out for myself before I figure out for the rest of the world and what we can do or cannot do. Right?

Lauren: 13:20

Yeah. I I I , I'm just gonna jump in here , um, because I know Lisa pretty well, and I'm gonna say that I think like the desperation comes from because I mean, Lisa is a helper and she's a healer mm-hmm <affirmative> . And she wants to, right . And so, as I think artists do that, right? Artists are deep feelers. And so we, we don't just feel it ourselves, but we feel the entire world . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so I think that , um, it's almost easier to feel the world when there's joyous and when you think of like, optimism and a , and a great future. And so, but it's super important to find a way to feel through , uh, the helplessness and the uncomfortableness and the somewhat sort of , uh, all of those feelings that you might have. And, and then I like that you said that you, you need to process it for yourself first. 'cause you're giving a lot of people permission that probably, myself included, wouldn't <laugh> give themselves, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I'm like a rusher, I'm gonna fix it. I'm like, we can do this. We got this, I'm gonna fix this. I'm gonna make a list right now. And then we can, like, what can I do? Put it on the schedule. <laugh> . Yeah. I'm just gonna put it on a schedule. And <laugh> , we got this. And, and it's nice to be reminded that it's okay to slow down and feel your feelings. That's what I was , you know, my husband was like, feel your feelings. Yeah . Those are, those are important. And everybody, everybody, no matter what the feelings are, should be feeling their feelings. They shouldn't have those feelings sucked away from them, or , um, insulted , um, you know , they should be welcome because it is , no matter what it is, is you're , when you're going through a transition, no matter what it is mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um, it's really important to recognize the fact that you are currently going through a transition. And transition is hard mm-hmm <affirmative> . For everybody. And it, it brings up a lot of emotions. Um, so yes , this reminds me of a conversation we had in the past with someone , um, and we were talking about tulips versus potatoes. And I feel like you need to become a potato right now because it's like the potato takes a while and the potato is slower and the potato Right. But the potato has lots of nourishment after it, it sits over winter. Right. Um, you know, and then maybe we could get to the tulip stage of, of beautiful production, but right now, maybe we're in a potato stage.

Lisa: 16:00

<laugh> . I , I like that. And I wanna add to that. Maybe we could talk about grief . How do you Yes. Grief is something that you don't understand until you really go through it. It's a, it's a very hard emotion to tackle. I lost my mom very early in that, that abyss I've never experienced. Like, I never, unless you go through it, you don't know what the hell it is. So I think right now a lot of people are, they're feeling the grief. There is a transformation, there is a transition. How do people deal with that? Via art ? Yes. Reflect, be potato , as Lauren said, but how maybe give some art therapy tools for people. Like how do you get, how do you identify grief at first it is sadness and then reflect or

Nadia: 16:37

Anger. <laugh> or

Lauren: 16:39

Anger .

Lisa: 16:39

Yes.

Nadia: 16:39

Or anger. I was like, it can be sadness or anger. I mean, at first, you know, when we talk of grief, I think we have to understand first we're maybe in a state of shock. Right? Like, maybe you're like, I'm not reacting, I'm numb. Yeah. It's because it's the emotion again, it's gonna be so big. Yeah . Uh , that your body just goes like, sorry, we're not experiencing this at the moment mm-hmm <affirmative> . So if you feel like you're like, I'm not feeling anything, but literally anything that you're like, I'm numb. I am , I , I am not angry, I'm not sad. I dunno what I'm feeling. That would be the first stage of like, yes. Normal shock, right? Yeah . Of like, I know this is , um, because basically grief is about helping us adapt to a new reality without that thing that we lost. Whatever that thing is Correct . Can be, again , apparent. It can be a belief system. It can be, again, so many things, right? It can be a job, <laugh> . It's like, there's many ways that we lost these things. Um, but with that feeling right, then it , after that shock stages over you can you suddenly start to feel that sense of anger or , um, or sadness, right? Of like this, like finally overwhelms you of, oh my God. Like I, I don't know, know what, what will happen? Because again, I don't know what this new reality is, and it either me off <laugh> because I'm like, I don't like this new reality. Yeah . Or again, or, you know, you might be a more like, I don't know what to do about this reality. Yeah. And then you might swing between both, right? Or some of us might prefer to lean on anger because it's easier than to lean on sadness. Uh , right. Sadness brings hopelessness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And hopelessness is a horrible feeling, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Where anger feels active, anger feels like, ah , I wanna just burn down the house. It's like, of course we can do that. Right? Right . Um , but it's not necessarily right. Like symptoms , feelings are complex like that. They , they can be masking the other feeling, right? Mm-hmm . Or sometimes with women, it has been shown that we tend to use more sadness than anger, right? Because we don't want to be bad, we don't want to be seen as threatening. So we're just mean depression of like, well, there's nothing I can do. Right? And then the anger gets repressed. Hmm . So there's dangers in those spaces, both. Right. Either a, I over burn and I'm just like, again, not feeling the sadness and just wanting to burn down the house with no real, again , self-awareness, right. Of , hey , the , the reality is, is I just wanna curl in my bed and cry and , and just know that it sucks to not be in control of reality. Right? Yeah. Um , I think that's where, where it's at, where you're like, I hate this lack of control. Yeah . Um , and then , you know, or then again, just you're so depressed that you're not engaging with Right. The anger that you need to engage with to set up a boundary and to be like, I'm done. Like this is today. Right. Like, we need that as well. So I feel like that's why self-awareness is so important, right? And when we were talking about art earlier and how do we use this? Yeah. I think that the beauty, again, of imagery is that, again, one image says more than a thousand words, right? Yes . And when people say, I don't make art, so I'm gonna go back to that second question that you posed earlier of like, Hey, I'm not an artist. I don't know how to do this. Well, let me tell you, there's many ways to do art that are not about skill. A an art therapist would tell you, I don't care how your art looks, I just, that it expresses who you are, what you feel, and where we're going, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like this is more about you being you than you creating something beautiful. I'm gonna hang on a wall. Like, that's not how we see art. Um, we see art more as, again, as a self-expression tool. And so when we're talking about, Hey, I'm not talented, I don't know what to do with this, I would always start with collage making is super easy. Yeah. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You can just start with collage again. If you have old magazines, if you still do, if you're not into this digital world that doesn't have magazines anymore, that makes me angry, by the way, <laugh> back magazines. 'cause I need to make collage. Yes . Right. But , uh, anyhow, you can always do collage. Collage doesn't require talent. You're just cutting out imagery that appeals to you. And in this case, I would tell you, Hey, how am I feeling today? And you just browse through images. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know, and then just paste them on a paper, and then just look at it and see how that feels for you. Okay. Right . How does it feel to express a feeling that it's not verbal? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah. Um, right. That's a first approach. I would be simple. A or you know, you're doing digital. I'm like, I'm all for it Right now. I'm obsessed with Canva to make collages mm-hmm <affirmative> . Because now I have access to all the images that I want from the web. Yeah . And I upload them to Canva mm-hmm <affirmative> . And make my own collages. Right? Yeah . And , or even use canvas's own images that they have, like stock photos. Uh , I just use it again, I use , you can use the free version and you'll have the watermarks, but who cares? Again, this is not about making this collage that's gonna go anywhere. This is just for you. Um, another exercise I've done, it's like I take that collage from Canva and what I've done with clients is like, I'm okay, you did this. And I was like, now that you look at this, what would you change in it? And then we copy paste that collage and then like switch that, change that image now to something that you feel has shifted in you after putting that first collage out. And then once you have that second one, okay, what has shifted? Let's create a third one. And then I just go, you know , 4, 5, 6, 7, 8. Right? Yeah . And then you start to see that emotional shift, right? Because you're using the imagery. And then just kinda like taking a second to be like , okay, once it's out there, what would I change? And maybe to a point where you're like, it's done. Like I don't need to change it anymore . Mm-hmm . Right ? Like , this is , I'm , I'm done with whatever it is. But again, it's a way to use images in a way that you don't need this talent, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . If not, you can always use abstract, right? Like, I love this exercise that I call the emotional color palette. And the way , what I tell people is, you know, you fold your paper in four, so you have, you know, fold it in half, fold it in half. Again, you will have four squares on your page, right? Once you have that page, or even justified it in four with two lines, <laugh> , that's it . <laugh> . Um, and then what I suggest is like, you can just choose, have colors in front of you. You can do markers, watercolor, whatever is in front of you. And then choose one color that represents happiness for you today. How does happiness look like for you today? You know, November 7th <laugh> , it's like, how is this looking for you? Um, right. And then you go ahead and then when you choose that color, I'm like, you're gonna take that color on a happy dance. So how does happiness move for you? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Right ? And so I'm like, that first square, we're gonna do a happy dance with this happy color. And, you know, and usually again, if I'm working with people who have no experience with art making , I'll guide them. I'll tell them , like, for me, happiness moves is like, the move is energetic. I'm thinking of myself jumping on a dance floor 'cause I'm happy. So I would be jumping up and down with my marker, right? <laugh> . And I'm like doing the motions . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And then I'm like, let's go to that second square. Now we're gonna go with anger, right? Like, what color is anger for you today? And how does anger move for you today? Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . So I'm like, okay. For me, anger is a very strong movement. It's probably like, I wanna punch someone in the face, so I'm just gonna punch this piece of paper. 'cause that's what I would love. Like, this is how anger is feeling for me today. Yeah. Third square we go with sadness. Same thing. How does sadness move for you? And sadness to me is a very slow movement. It's barely, I'm barely grabbing my marker. It's just kind of like flowing everywhere. 'cause I have no control. I just feel like I'm floating. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And then my fourth square would be peacefulness. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Or may I invite even today hope. Right? Like , what does peace or hope look for you today? What color is it and how does peace or hope move for you today? Um, right. And for me, peacefulness is a repetitive movement, right? It's, for me, it's like following my breath. So I just draw my breath, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And I'm drawing lines following my breath or circles. Right? And so after we do that exercise, I love just usually showing people that I'm like, we're able to do this. So far nobody has told me, no, no

Lauren: 24:50

<laugh> .

Nadia: 24:50

Because again, you're being very, very well guided , uh, at every step. And then I'm like, well, congratulations. You just became an artist, Uhhuh , right ? 'cause you express yourself in color and movement. And that's art <laugh> , right? That's basic 1 0 1 art. So I think that, you know, if, if we're again, trying to cope right now as creatives, as artists, and we're feeling like I'm not like creating, maybe I'm not like creating my own type of art that I usually do, but maybe I can engage in a smaller art exercise. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . That is not about me doing my own art, but maybe just about, again, let me just do a collage about how I'm feeling, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Yeah . Just to check in on myself, not with the idea or intention to, again , to produce, but

Lauren: 25:35

Just

Nadia: 25:35

Be mindful self-awareness. Where am I right now?

Lauren: 25:39

Yeah. Maybe it , it's , it doesn't need to be about production, but it needs to be about self-expression and self-care , uh, so that you can, because it sounds like, you know, one of the more important elements is, as you said at the beginning , um, you consider in a mirror mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so it's, it seems like it's a constant conversation that's having , that's having. And that's sort of , um, that's one of my favorite aspects of art is that, you know , um, even art you don't make, you can stand in front of and have a conversation with, or it'll, it'll say something to you without you being aw . Like in , you know, without you being aware that , um, anything was gonna happen when you just walk by. Um, and it has an impact on you. Um, and so , you

Nadia: 26:25

Know what you made me think of now that we're saying, like, I didn't wanna create yesterday. Right? Like , I , I didn't either , but I noticed . And then that's the other part of art, right? What do we consume as artists ? Yeah. And maybe right now it's the time to consume other people's art . Mm-hmm . Right ?

Lauren: 26:40

Yeah. Yeah .

Nadia: 26:42

Comfort in a poem we seek, there's this beautiful monologue , um, by , uh, Ethan Hawk about creativity.

Lauren: 26:50

I love that. I listen to that like all the time. Yeah .

Nadia: 26:53

Oh my God. Me too . I love it. Right? And I love when he says that, you know, like, we don't look at art until we're feeling deep feelings. Right? When something deep happens, that's when we turn to a poem. That's when we look for a song. When we're so in love with something, we're like, I can't, like, I just, when my feelings are overwhelming for me, I'll naturally turn to the arts to feel that connection to the other of like, I'm not the only one experiencing this type of experience. Yeah. Yeah. Be it tense or, or be it beautiful and, you know, and just a passionate moment. I think that we can also use this space to maybe again, help spread the love of other artists, right? Yeah . Who are now creating all these things. And maybe we just kind like sharing that. Like, that is already you engaging in creativity, right. Of really helping elevate the voice. I know yesterday I had like, I feel like I calmed down after I found the one image. That's why I went on social media. I was like , look at all my artists. Let's see who brings me this sense of making sense of the world right now of what I'm holding. 'cause also for me, it was holding space as a leader. And what does that mean? Right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And, and , and then I found this image of, of , uh, poo hugging re <laugh> . And it just said like , um, I actually, I , I , I will , I will just share it. 'cause I just love the way it was worded. It was just so simple. 'cause I was like, I , I was reading all these great words and ideas and I was just like, that's too much. I just want, you know, simplicity. Yeah . And it was like the sensitive urge to hold grief and hope in the same hug.

Lauren: 28:29

Oh , yeah. Oh , right. I think that that I, that, I mean, I can totally understand why you stopped on that one, because I think that it's , um, yeah, it's a , it's almost like being able to find the, the space for your feelings, I think can be so tough sometimes when things feel overwhelming and too much. And that is the power of art, right? Is, is I feel like the art is a way of almost creating a whole nother vessel for you to contain everything. You know, it , it, I don't know. Maybe it, it helps you get thing . I , I mean, I know it helps you get things out of your body, but I feel like it also makes more room inside your heart and your soul and your mind for everything that you're currently dealing with or that you're carrying with you. You know? 'cause we all carry all of our experiences with us throughout our lives, you know? Um , and yeah. So where

Lisa: 29:37

I'm going with it. Wait one second. I was , I like the idea of like, the self-awareness is really about expression. And when you're talking about emotions, I think a lot of people are fearful of their emotions. You know, they don't wanna feel them, especially, you know, they don't wanna feel grief. They don't wanna feel fear, but it's within you. And I think when, what you're talking about that exercise, when you get it out of you, you can look at it and go, that's not so bad. That's not like that . Yes . You know, it's like, it's like anxiety. You know? If you put it out on a paper and you're like, what ? You know, we used to do the little, the little, what was that? The little troll. We used to do workshops and we'd have have people draw their inner critic, right? And what does that little guy look like? You know what I mean? And usually he's really small and he is really like non-threatening. But somehow in our imagination, we blow it up. So it's really about releasing, being self-aware and releasing that emotion and going, oh, you're not so bad. Do you know what I mean?

Lauren: 30:30

So I , yeah. I feel like it , I gives you like a , and maybe it is, maybe it , maybe it's that , um, it's like the middle person art becomes the middle person between your, your like front self, you know, your conscious self, and then the , that other self that's a little bit scared and so, or, or mad or like just big right? No matter the feeling. And so you can, you can have a conversation with it safely, like you were saying, Lisa, because if you, if you get it out and you put it on paper, or you collage it, or you find an image that sort of represents it in the moment, then you can stop and take a breath and then you can have a conversation with it . And then , um, you can continue down that path. Um, I just like , yeah, go ahead.

Nadia: 31:23

I was thinking like, you know, what you were both saying of like, creativity is kind of like a, a less threatening way to deal with the emotion or to deal with the difficulty. 'cause it's a buffer, right? It serves as this like dis it's a distancing way to express something. Even just thinking about it like symbolically, right? Like if you're like, I can't connect to this, but if I transform it into something else, if it's, again, if it's now a figurine, then it already is less threatening. It's already, and it can be also an engaging and fun process in creating <laugh> this, so that also already is decreasing that sensation of like, overwhelm that can feel being in the self

Lauren: 32:07

<laugh>. Yeah. Well, I think , I think what you do is you take that step , um, you know, out of the unknown, right? Right. Because when you're feeling lots of feelings all at the same time, and they're intense, it's, you feel out of control, like you mentioned. Right? And so then when you add an heartbreak in there right? Or some sort of process in there, then you can, you can take that step and it be you. For me, I become more curious as opposed to fearful. Right? Because, because then you're, you're like, oh, I, 'cause you're always gonna surprise yourself even even like Lisa and myself, right? We do it all the time. And , um, even when I do an art break , I'm , I still am like, oh, I wonder why I did that. And then you can just kind of go down that, or you're asking questions rather than, I think it's like you become more curious instead of judgemental . You know what I mean? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Like , you're not, you're not judging yourself. Like for, for over overreacting or being too sensitive or , um, you know, just any, 'cause that's, we always have outside things coming in. And, and so this allows, I think maybe it allows you an opportunity to really have a quiet conversation with yourself, right. Without outside , um, interpretations coming in, you know? But I still like, am like, and just like you were saying, like I , my favorite people are the people who are like, no, thanks. Um, and so it's like, I really hope that after listening to this conversation, people are more curious about what it might do for them. And they , um, I think you're two exercise suggestions are really kind of easy to dive into. Even the one where you search for an image that represents how you're currently feeling. I, I love that dive into the art world. 'cause you might discover an artist you've never even heard of, you know, or a song, or a poem or a story , uh, or something like that. Yeah.

Nadia: 34:13

Yeah. Like what, what we consume, right? As as, I mean, just going to an art show right now, it's like I <laugh> I feel like just having that sense of connecting with the others, right. Who are at the same show, it's already showing that we have some sense of connection. Mm-hmm . And, you know, when we're going through difficulties, I think that there's so much power in community, right. Of like, just, just being with, with, with your people. Just being with where you're like, I just can be right now and we can be together <laugh> . Yeah . I think that there's that power, right? Because of that symbol that the art represents. Right . And it can bring us that against self-awareness of who we are, right? Yeah . You know, when you see those art pieces, it's usually not about the artist also. Right? You will come in and project all of these things <laugh> . Yeah . And maybe the creator is like, yeah, that was not my intention .

Lauren: 35:02

<laugh> . That was like ,

Nadia: 35:03

No , that was not what I was grad , but okay. That's ,

Lauren: 35:05

Yeah. That's actually one of my favorite things to do is like , um, I always, I never figured out how to do it, but I always dreamt of sort of being a fly on the wall during, like, so that I wasn't in the room and people were looking at my art because they didn't want me to add that extra sort of interjection of what it should be about. You know? Because I do, I love, I love the idea of someone , um, coming in and, and telling me what my work is about, because that's what it's about. Right? Whatever you're currently , uh, experiencing is, is what the work is about. You know? Um ,

Nadia: 35:43

The art is a mirror, right? So if it serves as a mirror, it can be a mirror of the creator, but also of the witness, like of, of the witness of the creation, right? Of like, oh, what, what do I need to see right now? And I might see some imagery and it might represent for me something very different right. Because of where I'm, yeah . I mean, even there's, you know, art that you probably love that you see, and that depending on how you are, it'll have a different meaning. Oh,

Lauren: 36:07

For sure. Yeah.

Nadia: 36:08

Art that you even yourself. And that's a self-awareness that I love about, you know, just having art be part of your journey to express yourself. Um, because I love art journaling. So for me it's like art journaling. I've, I've studied and researched a lot as an art therapist because I think it's a great process to document your life. But the cool thing is, is that you go back to art and you find new meaning in it where mm-hmm <affirmative> . Where you were like, oh my God, back then I did not see this. And it was clear . So clear and I could not see it back then. Right. Or, which doesn't happen with a written journal. 'cause with a written journal, it's written, it is what it is. Right? Yeah. And may , I may find some other interpretation, but I feel with like, with just with art , you always get that surprised of like, I expressed this thing I wasn't aware of, right? Yeah . And now I am aware or now I'm able to see it, right? And then that means that something changed in me. It means that something transformed so that I can have a higher awareness, even of my own art. Or again, someone else's art where you're like, oh, I hadn't seen it through that lens. Right. Of if, if, again, if I see whatever art show, I will have my thoughts about it. But then, you know, there's art that I didn't appreciate and then now I fully love and appreciate. Right. I remember going young to like <inaudible> and going to the Guggenheim Museum and being like, what is this? This is so

Lisa: 37:29

Insane .

Nadia: 37:30

Some art . Anybody could have done that <laugh> . Right? I was like, a kid could have done this. Right. Right. Going back 20 years later as an adult, and I loved it. I was like, oh my God. The power of like expressing and being an existing and showing us the dimensions, <laugh> of what art can mean and <laugh>. Right? So I feel like I would be probably kicking my adolescent self, like, shut up, you're a teacher .

Lisa: 37:55

<laugh> .

Nadia: 37:56

<laugh> . I

Lisa: 37:57

Love it. I love it. It's all about like activating your own inner art therapist. Right? That's what we're talking about. And it seems like a really safe space if art is your mirror and art makes you more self-aware. It's not like it's, for me, I don't , it's not scary, but for that person who thinks it's scary, I think we need to give them some words of wisdom <laugh> as they're activating their own inner art

Lauren: 38:18

Therapist. I , yeah. Well I'm thinking that like , um, you know, someone who is, is sort of being , um, like your adolescent self and being like, no, you know, like da dah , dah , dah , dah . Um, first of all, I would try to convince that person to go to their local art center or museum and just walk around and, and stop at something that calls to them. Right. And attempt to have a quiet conversation with that. You know, in their mind. I think that could be like a good first step for folks that aren't even willing to put pen to paper or cramon to paper. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um, and if you're, if you're not willing to do that, then maybe go outside. You know, if , if you're too, if you're too fearful of going to an art center or an art museum, or don't have access to one, then go outside and, you know, turn yourself in like a circle and stop at the thing that that may , you know, gives you the most attention or just calls to you the most and look at it for longer than you usually would. Right. Because I feel like that's when you can kind of start having a conversation with something. And that's, it's that why question that you were asking before. Like, why did I stop here? What is it about this? You know? And then just start the conversation there. I feel like those could be two good sort of steps towards, and then I would please, please at some point get a paper and start actually create something.

Nadia: 39:45

Yeah . You know what , actually there's research , um mm-hmm <affirmative> . You know, so 'cause you know, like, so our therapists, for those of of you who are hearing and don't know , it's like, so our therapy, we're a regulated mental health profession and we're trained in psychology and then we're trained in art. And so we kinda like have both worlds, right? So we do a lot of, again, like there's science behind a lot of what makes an art therapist and our therapist. Uh, so we navigate, again, two worlds that seem of posting , but in our world, they're not <laugh> <laugh> . And so that , that's a funny part about our profession. Um, but I think that, you know, it's like research shows that if you go to a museum, there's an experience and you change done. Right? Like we've all done it. But when you make art after that experience, like after the museum, if you're like in the museum invites you like, Hey, make some art about like response art, about like what you just saw. How do you feel? How did this thing, then it showed that 40% of attendees had a higher impact of what they experienced in the museum. Like, this will be an experience that will stay with them for a long period of time compared to just going and being like, ah , like I went to the Holocaust Museum and it was impactful and wow. And then I left. Right? And maybe, you know, the feeling stuck with me for a week and then I was out of it and then moved to the next thing in a week is even a longer time period of time. Yeah. However you invite to like, Hey, let's sit down. Like, how do you think, what , how did this make you feel? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Let's, you know, let's, let's express it on paper. Um, then there's that sense of like, oh, let me sit down with this information. Let me hold on. Particularly in a world where we are all like living in a hundred miles an hour because Right . Technology is rushing us to go a thousand miles an hour. Hold on a second. Go to, you know, go to again to a local museum, engage in something that you've never engaged in and just sit down with that experience. How was that for you, <laugh>, right ? How was it to go into the, I don't know, the Native American museum, history Museum, right? Mm-hmm . And sit down with like, you know, indigenous art and what do you think these people were experiencing when they created that? What does that art mean to them? What does it mean to you to see that art? Right. And just sitting with it for a little while just to really, again, gain that self-awareness of what does this experience mean to me? Yeah . Then I can take that, right? Even going to the Natural History Museum, like, you don't need to go to an art museum again, if it's too threatening, just go and look at the dinosaur gigantically in the middle of the room and what does that mean to you and what feelings that evoke in you. Does it bring you memories of your childhood loving dinosaurs? Right. Or , or does it bring you no memories of you going to a field trip and like, looking at the guy that you kinda liked and or no . Or the boy that you were like into and just like, Hey, <laugh> . It's like, I remember that, right? Like, it brings me those memories mm-hmm . Because we all have experiences in different spaces and just connecting back to how is that time for me? Right? If I was again, a prepubescent like, like cute boy, what was that for me like back then? Right. And, and what could I tell this younger self of like, you're being so cute <laugh> and you know, and brave. 'cause you took the, you know, the courage of talking to this boy. Uh, and you talked about dinosaurs and it had an impact right. On you. 'cause you took that courageous step of going for what you wanted. Right. And just kinda like congratulating that little girl for doing that. Right. For being courageous. So that can be even an experience of its own. And again, it doesn't have to be kind of , again, very creative. And if you feel again that you're like, I can draw and I can take a paper. I was like, Hey, just look for an image that represents it. <laugh> . Just going phone and Google an image of like, boy meets girl or girl meets girl or boy meets boy. And you know, and like, and see what image appeals to you that reflects that same feeling that, that you're wanting to express. Right? Like, allow another artist to mirror that for you if you're feeling at first that you don't, and then maybe copy it. Maybe you can little drawing <laugh> right of it for yourself. <laugh> . Mm-hmm . S threatening . It's okay. Yeah . Just start with that one step. <laugh> . You

Lauren: 43:56

Gotta just start. Yeah, totally .

Lisa: 43:58

Let's do it .

Lauren: 43:59

Let's , awesome. Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

Nadia: 44:04

Hey , no , absolutely. My, my pleasure. Um , it's always great to talk to, to creatives. I, I love it. <laugh> . I feel home. Good . I think

Lisa: 44:13

People a lot of resources too, and tools. So thank you for that. That was awesome . Of

Nadia: 44:17

Course. Absolutely. That's what we are here for <laugh> prevention. It's where it's at. <laugh>. There

Lisa: 44:22

You go . And just do it. <laugh> . Yeah .