What happens when groups gather and make art?

Lisa and Lauren talk with Anna Reyner about the magic of making art together as a group and what happens to the individual and the community as a whole when people sit down and get creative together. Art is the "secret sauce" that breaks down boundaries between strangers and helps them connect with one another. Anna also speaks to the benefit of teaching caretakers, social workers, nurses, teachers and other service providers how to use art as a tool for stress relief, trauma informed care, and social emotional development. Learn more about Anna and her work at https://www.creativeplayla.com/

Transcript

Lisa: 0:02

Okay, everybody, welcome to our Take an Art Break Podcast. We're really excited today. We're here with Anna Reiner . And Anna, introduce yourself,

Anna: 0:12

Please . Okay, I'll do that. Thanks. So, I'm Anna Reyner, if you don't mind. It's all right . And we said Reyner Shine is one way you can remember. Oh, I like that. <laugh>. Yeah . But anyway , uh, Anna Reyner and , um, I've been an art therapist and an art teacher and a teacher of various other types of , uh, content. I used to be an English teacher. I love art and language together. But anyway, I've worked in human services all my life , um, in many capacities. But art has always been the common thread, and I really , uh, enormously value the , uh, the impact of art on wellbeing , um, on mental health, social emotional health, and on how it art can connect people to each other, how we can connect to our real self. It's , it helps us sort of engage and activate our authentic self . But I think in this day and age now, when we're all feeling very isolated, especially after the , uh, covid lockdown pandemic , um, but also just modern society, we're so hooked on our screens and, and our to-do list, because life is so overstimulating. Things that we gotta do, gotta get done, gotta get done. And sometimes we forget the , um, value of making authentic connections with other people. And , uh, sometimes people we know, and sometimes new people, if we go to an , some kind of art gathering and we're around people we've never met before , um, simple art activities can help us feel seen. And that's what I think we all desperately want. We want to be seen, we want to be acknowledged and , uh, valued and in an authentic way. And art really enables us to do that. Yeah . So my business is , um, I have a business that , uh, I've been a trainer for many, many years, decades, I I say between 35 and 40 years as an educator myself, who then became a therapist, which I think is not uncommon when people who are interested in education or social sciences of any type, oftentimes they're also interested in therapy. I was one of those people. So art was my key interest. Then I loved working with people, so I love worked with children and adults, and , um, I think I always loved that connection. So I loved being creative, and I loved the connection. You know, a lot of artists who are fine artists, studio artists, work in isolation, because in some ways that's just the life of an artist. It's, you're going deeply into your own form of expression and, you know, creation. But , um, and I tried that when I was younger, but I, I was lonely. I, I missed the connection. I miss , I miss social. I guess I'm , I have that little bit of extroversion in me, <laugh> , just graves , you know, a connection. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And , uh, so I found that art therapy , uh, and art education was a way to be creative and also connect. So , um, so I don't know if you wanted to ask me another questions, but I can just go and talk about

Lauren: 3:16

Yeah. Um , well , we like , yeah. I love that. Thank you for introducing yourself, and I love everything you've mentioned so far. Yeah. We usually use a question as a jumping off point for a conversation, and then just where it goes . Um, it's been working out for several years now, so. Good, good,

Anna: 3:33

Good. Yeah . You've been , you've been in it for a long time, and it Yeah, I'm glad have the follow you have growing following. Yeah.

Lauren: 3:40

Yeah. So , um, I wa I wanted to ask you , uh, what happens when groups gather and make art? I mean, it's great jumping off point from what you mentioned about the creativity and connections. So what have you, have you noticed that happens when you do get groups together and they gather and they make art together? What happens?

Anna: 3:59

Well, you know, art is like the secret sauce to connection. And in groups when, especially when people don't know each other or know , don't know each other well. And I say that because I do now, and for the last five years, I have , um, worked as a teacher trainer for teachers who come together for their professional development needs because they work in school districts, or they work in head start agencies, or they work with children. Um, but they have once or twice a year, all the , uh, the classrooms will stop and they'll have professional development days. Hmm . So depending on your school district, you'll have one day or two days, or sometimes the whole week. Uh, I know I live in Los Angeles and the school districts here will close, you know, for up almost a week, I think, before school starts, and that's when they bring trainers in. And I have a business that , uh, uses art to show those teachers how to be better teachers, more effective teachers, and how to address the social emotional needs of the children that they're teaching. So we assume in education, especially working with younger children, and I'm talking about preschool through early elementary , um, early childhood is defined up until age eight. So it's first, second, and third grade and preschool, that's when children's minds are developing , uh, at their fastest rate. And they do a lot of hands-on learning to accelerate their, the growth of their, their neurons and their , um, brain pathways and the , their foundational , uh, you know, brain capacity gets determined in those early years. So I work with teachers who work in tho with those children. And so I have groups of teachers sometimes as many as 250 at a time I did recently , um, you know, more often with 25 or 50 at a time. And I do a lot of different trainings, but I'm always using art materials as a part of the training. So now I do, I do a lot of creativity and connection workshops. One that , uh, is very popular is just called Renew Your Passion. And it's art for the teachers themselves or the caregivers. 'cause you know, not everybody's a teacher, but many people work in a, in a care , in a nurturing position. You know, whether they are social workers or teachers or, you know, there's so many, whether you're a nurse, whether you're a firefighter, there's so many what you would call service professions where you're helping other people and working with other people. And , um, and those, the , those are people in, in that field. Those of us who are educators or therapists , um, have a lot of stress because we have the secondary stress of the people we're working with to help them get out through their stress. We have our own collective stress. And that's, you know, that's a recognized , uh, it's kind of a , a form of, of mild , I , it's not necessarily Maya , but it's a generalized form of PTSD . Um, what happens, it's care for the caregiver, uhhuh and teachers, A lot of times people don't realize teachers are caregivers. They're educating, but they're also dealing with children's , um, the social emotional foundation, how I feel about myself, how I, how I relate to others. How does the world see me? Do I fit in the world? Do I have a place? And , um, so given that teachers often get burned out, especially after , um, the Covid pandemic , um, when everybody's nerves are kind of fried , uh, because of the pandemic overload of trauma , um, you know, teachers are desperate to make connections and get in touch with their own creativity. So get back , getting back to your question, Laurel , uh, Lauren, what do I see when I do those workshops? I see those, these sparks starting to fire, not in the beginning, because if you give most adults a piece of black paper and stuff to play with, you know, they're like, I can draw. I'm not an artist. <laugh> . Yeah . Yeah . Like, why did I sign up for this? Or why did my manager make me go to this? Yeah . I hate art. I was never good at it. Or, you know, something I hear , you know, we've heard it all. Yes. In fact , so often it's , it's like a broken record. People will come into the training, I'll have everything set up with some nice inviting, you know, very express, like the things you see behind me. I'm not doing what most people think of as art. I'm doing lines , shapes and colors. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . I'm telling you the things that our therapists do, <laugh> , it's like, let's , let's just do it and not think about it. Right . You know? And , uh, so people come in and it's , so often people say just like, they see me setting up and they say, oh, I'm not an artist. I can't draw. And like, like, just to warn you, this is not my thing. <laugh> <laugh> . And , uh, then oftentimes after the end of the hour or two hours, depending on, you know, how long the workshop is, those same people will say, you know, I was, this is more fun than I thought it would be. And that's what I know that, okay, I've done my job to help open up people's attitudes about their own ability to enjoy this. And, and, and then on a , a point that , um, that I think is so important to make is the connections and how when people are loosening up, and I'm doing a lot of those, loosening up with liquid, watercolor, loosen up with, you know, doodling, scribbling, getting a lot of motion in there. Um, I always say the more of your body you get involved, the better. 'cause you wanna get out of your head . And , um, and you see people starting to relax and connect and enjoy just talking with each other, pe each other in a relaxed fashion. You know, you see, there's so much, there's so much that happens and, and it's not, art is not what people think it is. And, and these workshops help them realize that.

Lisa: 9:52

Yeah . I love that. Uh , what comes up for me is , um, an understanding of empathy. It , you know, when you were talking about like , um, teachers as caregivers or people that are in the service industry where they're absorbing other people's energy and they don't know it. So do you feel that art , um, helps you understand the po you know, and it's empathy towards yourself as well, right? Yeah, yeah,

Anna: 10:17

Yeah. You know, it is, it's such a, it's , it's such a metaphor, say , just because of this thing happens to be behind me on the wall, right ? Um, this is just swirls of color that have been sprayed through a spray bottle. So it's liquid paint, it's literally liquid watercolor and a big , uh, I think it's a four by eight paint tarp, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . And so it's a very , um, uh, loose thing that I'm spraying and swirling some drizzles on top. So if I , um, do a smaller version of those with a group of 50 people or 250 people , um, excuse me, where everybody's, you know, we're doing those kinds of things on a, on a more reduced size, or perhaps they're standing around with a group of four, six people doing it on a larger size as a, as a group activity. Um, in either of those cases, you see how even though you're using the same simple materials , um, everybody expresses themselves differently. And so it's that metaphor that we're , we're, we all have our own way of looking at things mm-hmm <affirmative> . And that helps you, you know, see how, you know, there's many different ways to solve a problem. Um, we're , even though there's, we're, we're working with the same material, so like, we're all so similar, but we're all so different at the same time. I always love this one saying, you might have heard of it, but it's so , it's kind of silly, but it's so simple and so true. It's like, you know, you don't ever forget that you are your own unique person. Nobody in the world is just like you. And so you have qualities that are so just personal to you, just like everyone else does. Yeah. It is like, yeah, we're so unique, but we're so like everyone else at the same time. It's like , right.

Lauren: 12:03

Yeah. It's

Anna: 12:03

Puzzling, but it's true.

Lauren: 12:06

And , and I think, yeah, what I, what I like about this is that, you know, you're, it's almost as though in the very same moment people are , um, sort of learning self-expression or getting the opportunity to self-express while also , um, gaining perspective about the , but about other people , um, not being like them in every way. Right. It's, it's, you know, so you're, you're building community and connection, but also allowing someone else to , um, be part of that community without judgment in a way. You know, because a lot of, a lot of your daily interactions with people aren't necessarily welcoming <laugh>, because unfortunately, we live in a society that pushes being super busy and having to go everywhere, and everyone feels rushed, and then they're viewing themselves as the center of the universe. So when someone else does something, it's like they're impacting them, as opposed to like, we're all in this together. And what I'm hearing is that when people , um, make art together, and I know Lisa and I have witnessed this , um, anytime we've, we've had our , especially in our break day , but you, you watch sort of that part of people sort of drop off their bodies, right? The sort of the walls that you build up almost to quote unquote survive your day , uh, you know, are dismantled when you are sitting. And I don't know if it's like, is it because you're kind of doing something you don't normally do? 'cause a lot of people we get at our break day tables, some of them are super excited and they know us and they wanna come and do it. Um, and they can't believe it's happening in a public space. But a lot of people are hesitant, right? Like, what you described, they're like, Nope, I'm not gonna do this. And the reason they do it is 'cause a friend makes them do it. Right? Or their boss, like, you suggested <laugh> . Um, and, and then all of a sudden you watch it. I mean, I can , you can predict at this point, 'cause we've done it so many years, and so have you , uh, you can see the person and you know, what, what sort of , uh, art, art making personality they have. And it's so fun to watch that get dismantled , uh, in a short period of time, you know? Yeah.

Anna: 14:32

And it is pretty quick. It is pretty quick if you are trained in how to facilitate that process, which is , uh, you know what, a lot of people, if you're an art therapist , um, you know, you recognize that a lot of people have no idea really what an art. People don't understand art and they don't understand therapy and put those together. You know, unless you've had , unless you've been an artist or experienced the art process or been in therapy or trained as a therapist, you know, you have no idea really what those are. And that's most people, right . You know, most people think you go to therapy and they give you the answers. They tell you what to do. Right. And, you know, art is something that looks, you work till it looks great, and then you try to sell it to a gallery, right ? So yeah, you put those together and, and yet as an art therapist, we're trained to do just what we're talking about, help people get out of their heads , um, out of their critical selves and just experience , uh, the process of discovering what happens when you lay down some color and you do this and you do that, and you don't think about it ahead. You know, you see people say, I have no idea what to do. Well, that's the perfect place to be

Lisa: 15:36

<laugh> .

Lauren: 15:37

Yeah , yeah , yeah , yeah . Yeah.

Lisa: 15:40

I love it. Do you know, you were talking before off camera , we were talking about research. Do you have any like, research? 'cause it for me, like we're talking about, 'cause we've seen it, I've seen it so many times. I always say it's when the head goes down, <laugh> , there's something when people, you know what I mean? You're creating, and everybody's like, you know, they're, they're in, but then they're out. You know, they're in and out. They're like , um, is any research, oh, sorry.

Lauren: 16:06

No, I was just gonna say, it's, it's, it's because it's not direct. I talk to my kids about this all the time. I kiddo struggles with eye contact, you know, 'cause it's, and we talk about it a lot. Um, and it's 'cause it's intimidating, you know? And for him, it's almost like a flip flop of intimidation. It's because he's very good at reading people and he almost like knows right away , uh, what's going on with the person. And it's a really big emotional rollercoaster for him, you know? And so making art for him is, is a really nice way to connect with people. Um, he sits next to his best friend and they read books together. And it's because they can be together and they can talk. But it's not this like direct talking. And I think that is one of the powers of the art table, is that right? Like you said, your head is down, right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But it's almost like you have an indirect and direct connection with someone. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . But you can talk about stuff because you're not necessarily feeling as though you are the center of the stage. Right. And for some people having a light sh you know, shining on them is what kind of makes them freeze, you know? And who we could call it a trauma response. We could call it a personality trait , uh, who knows what it is. But art kind of, I think when you're in the, in the making process of art, not the showing process of art, the showing process of the art is definitely like, here I am, everybody. And that takes a certain kind of personality to do that. And that's great. I mean, I've done it before. It's fun. Um, but it's super intimidating. But when you're at a, when you're in the middle of creating, right? I feel like it's this direct and indirect at the same time. And I think that's what you're talking about, right, Lisa? It's like this dance. And so you're not so feared, maybe.

Lisa: 17:47

Yeah. There's something, and there's something about like the what happens to the brainwaves, Anna, if you know, any research that could kind of uncover that. Yes .

Anna: 17:55

Well, there, there has been some research , um, on , uh, cortisol and serotonin and dopamine, those kind of things. Uh , so you take , uh, the stress hormone, cortisol, you know, I don't know a lot about, you know, all the neurological , uh, it's hormonal, neurological. But I do know some because of , I wrote a , a book, this that was just came out a year ago , uh, trauma-informed art activities for early childhood. And I had to do a lot of research , um, because I wrote it with a publisher and I wanted it to be a textbook , uh, for university , uh, ready . I wanted it to be as , you know, it was all the big biography or bibliography and , um, you know , all, everything was , uh, had to be very well researched, put it that way. So , um, so there have been some studies as there's MIT of all places, you know, MIT which is known as such a , you know, engineering and super think tank hub of, of left brain analytic thinking, you know, from the STEM research. But they do a lot of art and creativity , uh, research at MIT and other top universities. Um, but MIT is a hub and , uh, there's been a , a research coming out of there and other places about , um, uh, cortisol levels decreasing, which is the stress hormone. And , um, that's one that seems to be easily to measure , easily measurable after say an hour of, of sustained , uh, you know, art activity. And I think our therapists ha are always trying to get more and more research on board so that they can be recognized in the world of mental health as, as more viable. Because there still is a question from, you know, the lay you know, the lay public and even professionals, like, you know, what does art really have to do with any of this? You know, it , it , it's so part of that not being understood, but, you know, 'cause art is a , is think thought of as a thing. It's really a process as an experience. It's, it's creativity and , uh, letting go of boundaries and , uh, being vulnerable and opening up. And then you play with paint and lines and colors and that documents your experience. Um, so it's not art as a decoration, it's art as an experience. Um, and that's something that if you don't recognize that, then it makes no sense why art would have anything to do with, you know, cortisol levels.

Lauren: 20:18

Yeah. Well, what I find interesting is there, there have been studies about like, even even going to a museum, like you don't even have to , that's , that leans on . Yes . Yeah . And that leans on the fact of it being an experience, right? Because going to a museum is, is an art experience, right? And so, right. It's a , it was like 45 minutes of art , uh, of art , uh, what Viewing, viewing , um, decrease , uh, decreased stress hormone cortisol. And so I think that , um, that , but that also ta that also ha you have to be in the category of understanding that art isn't just something that you are , um, viewing, as you said, like from your head, you are experiencing it, right? Mind, body , spirit, all of it at the same moment. Right . Um, and I think that , uh, I mean it's, it's always interesting to me to talk about the why, why does spraying colored water <laugh> on a campus ? Why does it do that? I mean, and maybe that's just a way , um, philosophical question that we can't answer, you know? Um, it just does. I don't really know, you know? Well, when

Anna: 21:33

You think about early childhood, which is kind of my, it became my area of expertise over the years, which didn't start the way. 'cause I, I , when I studied art therapy in , uh, when you, when you become an art therapist, you know, you , it's a grad, grad school experience, usually two years, right? And I know where I went the first year. They expose you to child art therapy, adult art therapy , uh, couples group art therapy, all the , all the ways that you could practice, right? Which is with any mental health practice, there's all those different , uh, um, audiences that you could , uh, you know, work with. But , um, I chose adult art therapy because I had been a teacher already, and I thought I just was ready to switch it up and do something different. So I really started my career as an art therapist working in , uh, inpatient mental health and community settings for adults. But then, you know, as, as so many careers kind of morph over time, I ended up , uh, focusing on the early, early years, which I really enjoy. Especially 'cause I had two children. And it's really fun when you study art and, and work with your own children and art. I mean, it's amazing. And , um, but anyway, when you studied the early child development, so much of it, the sensory, you know, before our, our thought processes , our left brain kicks in. You know, it's all about interaction, sensory interactions with the environment and children, you know, the brain develops through movement and sensory interactions. That's how, so I see those sensory play, messy art, all as part of that sort of biological, you know, that reptile brain. It's like, it , it , it really can't unless you have , uh, unless you're on the spectrum or have sensory, you know , deprivation or sensory, sensory, whatever that term is, where it, it freaks you out to have sensory stimulation . 'cause you're already overstimulated , right? Mm-hmm <affirmative> . Unless you're , unless you're , that has happened to you, right ? Um , or you were born with that , uh, issue. Um, normally sensory stimulation involves all the pleasures of life. When you think eating or having to eat a sunset, having the wind blow through your hair, you know, they say riding a bicycle and or what ? Skiing, scuba diving, all the things that involve, you know, the , um, using your body and feeling your senses. Mm-hmm <affirmative> . That's kind of , that's where so much of the pleasure principle of life lies. And that's where art can come in. But people think, oh, I'm gonna make my house is gonna be a mess. How am I gonna clean it up? I , I have no idea what paint to buy. It's amazing how people don't even know what paint I have. People ask me the , the , the questions that for an art person sound like so simple. Like, I have somebody recently , um, my daughter's friend had bought a surfboard, an old surfboard at a , um, at a thrift shop or something that she wanted to paint not to use this airport . It was very old. And she said, ask your mom what kind of paint <laugh> . She said, I've got some liquid water. I've got some, you know, watercolor strips around <laugh> . It's like, I think , I forget how people have no idea what temper paint is, or watercolor or acrylic or what would I use acrylic ? They have no idea. 'cause why would they, you know, it was never the thing.

Lauren: 24:46

Right. Wouldn't it be nice though if we lived in a world where that was just like part of our society, like eating an apple you just knew, right? Like this is paint and Yeah.

Lisa: 24:58

What I love what you're talking about is creativity is almost like epicurious meaning it's, it, it is sensory. I don't think people look at it as that. I think what you were , you keep alluding to is like art <laugh> . It's in a museum, I can't do it. You know what I mean? It's, so there seems like a separation, but Lauren , you just said it, what if art is like eating an apple? It's that sensation. It's epicurious. It's like, ah , that's what life is. It makes life more colorful, more beautiful.

Anna: 25:26

Yeah. Who doesn't love a sunset? I mean, you know , maybe some people don't, I don't, I haven't met that person yet, right ?

Lauren: 25:32

Yeah . Right. And right. It's because it's this, yeah. It's this way of getting in, in tune with, right? And we talked about this before. It's like your , it's your connection with, with how you're alive, right? So if you are mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um, if you're experiencing all your senses in one moment, it , it's sort of like what connects you with, with life and then perhaps with the life around you. And maybe that's why when people make art together, right? It's almost as though you are experiencing being alive as a person, but also as like a community. Um, it's that reminder that we are all connected. You know, we, we are all in this together. And it, and sometimes certain things may make us feel like we're not , um, certain structures in the way that society is , um, created or talked about or things like that. But, you know, when you take that moment, you press that pause button and you open up , um, you know, it's that reminder that almost like you matter, but we matter on a grander , um, you know, context. Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 26:51

Beautiful. It's like I'm , it's like I see you <laugh>. You know what I mean? It's almost like that. And then what you create

Anna: 26:58

I do . I hear you. And what you say matters to me. Yeah . That's , uh, one of those old , uh, yeah . Bottom line elements. Yeah. Yeah .

Lauren: 27:07

Yeah. And it's, and it , I mean, and that is right. I mean, and , and if there's anything we need right now, you know, I think that's what we need. We need people to feel as though they are, they're worthy of being seen and they're worthy of being heard. And that , um, you know, what you have to say does matter. You know? Um, and that , uh, you know, maybe gathering together to , um, express those feelings and those thoughts and things like that might, well, we know the three of us know that it would, we would end up with a positive , um, outcome. You know? Um, it's just getting the people in the room, right? <laugh>

Anna: 27:45

Yeah, that's right. It's getting them to realize there's something in it for them. And I think , um, you know , little by little, I know when I , um, see these groups of teachers, you know, I know that that's gonna have a ripple effect because so many of them, you know , do say, oh, this is more fun than I thought. Right ? And , um, you know, that the next time something comes around, they're gonna be just a little more open to it because that actually wasn't so bad. <laugh> . Yeah. That's really success <laugh> and

Lauren: 28:14

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I , I like that. 'cause like in our, in our previous , um, conversation, we were talking about how important the conversation is, you know, and , um, right. It's like first you kind of talk, talk about it, and people, like you were saying, people just don't , some people don't even know , um, what art is. Right? That's what we've been talking about, that the whole time where they have art in this one category mm-hmm <affirmative> . Um , and , and the category is I can't do it. Right? So then if we keep telling people, we keep talking about it, well, you don't have to do it in that way, but you can do it in this way. And just sort of introducing 'em mentally to the concept of it, right? That's a good first step. And then the second step is getting them into the room and to sit down at the table. And then once they do that, mo most people , uh, you know, will , will try it again. Um, you know, and so I love that. I love the idea of just like, even just being out there, even the people that , um, maybe walk by when you're doing something and they aren't doing it, but at least the fact that it's there opens them up a little bit more to the notion of maybe doing it at a later date, you know? Uh, so yeah, I mean, I , I , to me it's like blowing a trumpet, like keep doing it. Everyone <laugh> keep, keep offering it, you know, the world needs it.

Anna: 29:35

Definitely

Lisa: 29:36

For me, what I , what comes up for me, it's like art is medicine and it works in different ways. It doesn't, it , it doesn't work like <laugh> . You don't have to draw the apple like an apple for it to work. Do you know what I mean? Yeah . On your psyche, on your, on your physical being, on your hormones, on a whatever, you can do it. You can just do the color. You can, you know what I mean? So that's so non intimidating . Excuse me. Non intimidating <laugh> , you know? Yeah . You can just throw colors on canvas and boom, you know, you're, you're feeling better. So, wow.

Lauren: 30:06

Yeah. Yeah.

Lisa: 30:07

So Anna, yeah, I was just gonna say, tell, tell people how they can, you know, connect with you and , um, your offerings and , um, I mean, you're doing beautiful work, so

Anna: 30:19

Thank you. Thank you. It's fun to be here and I've followed you for so many years. Yeah . And I'm so glad you're doing what you're doing. So my , uh, business is , um, creative play la and it's LA because I'm in Los Angeles. And , um, there was a time that I , uh, before I ever did virtual trainings with art, I, I never thought I would do virtual trainings with art or all these podcast things. And, you know, so much is available after Covid and we became so facile with Zoom and all the other platforms, teams and all that stuff. Um, so I used to just do , uh, trainings in California where I've lived for 40 years. And , um, I'm well networked within the , um, within the , um, uh, education market here in California. So a lot of people have heard my name 'cause I've, for decades I've been doing art workshops at conferences for educators in California. Um, and so my name Anna Reyner, I always like to think I'm a big fish in a small pool of people who work in early education, have probably heard, they maybe don't know my name, but they think she's that art person, <laugh>. And we're gonna do some hands on art. If we go to her workshop, we're not gonna talk about art or look at slides. We're gonna make Art <laugh> . And so I'm, I'm pretty well known in California in this market , um, as just my name. So if you Google my name , uh, you'll, you'll find a bunch of stuff up there. But I, I do have a , a , a website that I've worked hard on. It's very colorful and I have a lot of , uh, handouts. I have three eBooks that are free and one, including one now that I love. I gotta say, you know, to toot my own horn, it's called , um, the Healing Power of Art or something like that. Anyway, I made it down into ebook and it's art therapy condensed with colors and I made it on Canva and then I had it professionally made into an ebook and you can download it for free. I think it's called How the Arts , how Art Heals Us. That's Heals Us . It's my favorite. Nice . And I wrote a book that was published on trauma informed art for early childhood , um, which is also on there, but you can just look up Creative Play LA and you'll find me there. Awesome.

Lauren: 32:24

Fantastic. Alright . Thank you so much for taking the time to talk to us today.

Anna: 32:28

Yeah, thank you for inviting me. It's been fun. Yes.